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学校的职责就是育人，把“无知”的学生教育成为有文化、有道德的人。可是也有人把学校比喻成一个制造模型的机器，培养出来的学生成了没有思想的“商品”。很多时候，学校只强调向学生灌输知识，而忽略了学生的个性和天赋。作为学生或曾经的学生，你怎么看？
Host： Sir Ken Robinson is considered one of the prominent voices of education today. Producer Aurora Velez met him in Paris to talk about talents， innovation and educational challenges.
主持人：肯·罗宾逊爵士被认为是当今教育界最权威的声音之一。制片人奥罗拉·维莱斯在巴黎采访了他，一起谈谈天赋、创造力以及教育面临的挑战。
Aurora： Sir Ken Robinson， in your latest book， The Element， you talk about our talents. Is the school killing them？ In which way？
Robinson： Well， schools sometimes ignore them， I would say. Part of the argument of the book is that we all have very different talents， and they show themselves in all sorts of different areas. You know， for some people， it may be science or mathematics； for other people it may be dance or music. I always think of human talents like the Earth’s natural resources. You know， they may be there， but you may never discover them. They may be buried. You may have to work hard to find them. And schools tend to focus on a very narrow idea of ability， you know， particularly a certain sort of academic work， so it’s why students at school spend most of their time writing and sitting down. And I’m not saying those things aren’t important， but they’re not the whole of human talent， and so schools often ignore young people’s real talent. You know， I think that...that we do need a revolution in education， so the change is beginning to happen， and I think it’ll get faster.
奥罗拉：肯·罗宾逊爵士，在你最新的书《让天赋自由》中，你讲到了天赋。学校是否抹杀了我们的天赋，体现在哪方面呢？
罗宾逊：我认为学校有时候会忽略掉学生的天赋。书中的部分观点就是我们都有着各自不同的天赋，体现在不同的领域中。例如，有些人有科学或数学方面的天赋，有些人可能有舞蹈或音乐方面的天赋。我一直认为人类的天赋就像是地球上的自然资源一样，它也许一直都在，但你可能永远都发现不了，它可能被埋藏起来了，你可能要很努力地寻找。然而，对于能力，学校通常都只停留在狭隘的观念上，尤其是在一些学术科目中，这就是为什么学生们在学校的大部分时间都在书写和坐在座位上。我不是说那些不重要，但那不能发掘人类的全部天赋，因此学校常常会忽略掉年轻人真正的天赋。你知道吗，我认为……我们真的需要进行教育改革，改变已经开始了，而且我认为改变的速度会更快的。
Aurora： Are...are the teachers helping on that or not？
Robinson： Well， some are， and...and some aren’t. It’s a very complicated system. There are a lot of people in education who have been in this for a very long time， and they don’t necessarily see the need for change and don’t necessarily feel very well-equipped to bring the change about even if they were to understand it. So I think there is a big generational shift that will happen. I think as this generation of young people moves through the system， you may well find that the whole context will have changed and...and they’ll have， you know， a different set of attitudes and energies to bring to this shift. 奥罗拉：教师是否会推动改革？
罗宾逊：呃，有些会，……有些不会。这是一个很复杂的系统。在教育界里，很多人已经呆了很长一段时间，他们未必看到改变的需要，或者他们即使理解改变的必要性，但也觉得自己没能力带来改变。因此我认为将会发生教师大换代。我认为，当这一代年轻人经历完这个教育体系，你就会发现整个教育的背景都会发生改变，他们会以一种不同的态度和干劲带来这样的改革。
Robinson： Creativity’s putting your imagination to work， and sometimes it’s an individual effort and sometimes it involves collaboration. It almost always involves being influenced by other people’s ideas one way or another. I think that the， there’s a huge op...a huge area for innovation—how we organize schools internally. I mean， for example， most schools are still organized by subjects， they divide the day up into small bits， you know， to 40 or 50 minutes， and they ring a bell every 50 minutes. I mean， they’d just be 1）demoralized. It would...you’d never get anything done. But we do it in schools all the time. So I think if you organize schools or learning communities around the nature of the tasks that you’re asking people to do， you...you’d see a very different kind of dynamic. I mean sometimes you want to spend all day working on a project， and sometimes you just need 15 minutes to do something in particular. At the moment it’s all organized around the schedule， and we try to fit everything else into it.
Aurora： Yeah.
Robinson： 2）Tests and drugs and rock-n-roll， isn’t it？ Well， I’m not saying tests are bad. I’ve never said that. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be made to work hard. I think that’s really important. I mean， the problem is where testing becomes the purpose of it all. I’m， what have， I’m not critical of there being data like this， just that people 3）obsess about it， and it becomes the purpose of the exercise.
罗宾逊：创造力就是把你的想象力变成实际行动，这有时候需要个人的努力，有时候需要合作。这个过程几乎总是会被其他人的思想以这样或那样的方式影响。我认为，创新的空间很大——那么我们该如何在内部组织教学呢。我的意思是，例如，大部分学校都是按科目组织教学的，他们把一天分成几个小部分，每部分是40到50分钟，他们每50分钟就会打一次铃。我的意思是，他们会变得毫无生气，它会……你什么都做不成。然而我们在学校一直都是这样做的。因此，我认为，如果你组织学校或学习团体时以要求学生去做的任务的性质为中心，你会看到一种很不一样的劲头。就是说，有时候你想花一整天的时间去做一个项目，而有时候你只需要15分钟去处理一些特殊的事情。目前，所有学校都按照时间表来安排，我们则试图让所有东西去配合它。
奥罗拉：是的。
罗宾逊：测试和毒品是一对的，不是吗？呃，我不是说测试是不好的，我从来没这样说过。我不是说人们不应该用功学习，相反，我认为这是很重要的。我的意思是，问题在于测试成了学习的最终目的。我不是批判这些考试数据，而是人们对此过于关注，使它成了考试的目的。
Host： Sir Ken Robinson is considered one of the prominent voices of education today. Producer Aurora Velez met him in Paris to talk about talents， innovation and educational challenges.
主持人：肯·罗宾逊爵士被认为是当今教育界最权威的声音之一。制片人奥罗拉·维莱斯在巴黎采访了他，一起谈谈天赋、创造力以及教育面临的挑战。
Aurora： Sir Ken Robinson， in your latest book， The Element， you talk about our talents. Is the school killing them？ In which way？
Robinson： Well， schools sometimes ignore them， I would say. Part of the argument of the book is that we all have very different talents， and they show themselves in all sorts of different areas. You know， for some people， it may be science or mathematics； for other people it may be dance or music. I always think of human talents like the Earth’s natural resources. You know， they may be there， but you may never discover them. They may be buried. You may have to work hard to find them. And schools tend to focus on a very narrow idea of ability， you know， particularly a certain sort of academic work， so it’s why students at school spend most of their time writing and sitting down. And I’m not saying those things aren’t important， but they’re not the whole of human talent， and so schools often ignore young people’s real talent. You know， I think that...that we do need a revolution in education， so the change is beginning to happen， and I think it’ll get faster.
奥罗拉：肯·罗宾逊爵士，在你最新的书《让天赋自由》中，你讲到了天赋。学校是否抹杀了我们的天赋，体现在哪方面呢？
罗宾逊：我认为学校有时候会忽略掉学生的天赋。书中的部分观点就是我们都有着各自不同的天赋，体现在不同的领域中。例如，有些人有科学或数学方面的天赋，有些人可能有舞蹈或音乐方面的天赋。我一直认为人类的天赋就像是地球上的自然资源一样，它也许一直都在，但你可能永远都发现不了，它可能被埋藏起来了，你可能要很努力地寻找。然而，对于能力，学校通常都只停留在狭隘的观念上，尤其是在一些学术科目中，这就是为什么学生们在学校的大部分时间都在书写和坐在座位上。我不是说那些不重要，但那不能发掘人类的全部天赋，因此学校常常会忽略掉年轻人真正的天赋。你知道吗，我认为……我们真的需要进行教育改革，改变已经开始了，而且我认为改变的速度会更快的。
Aurora： Are...are the teachers helping on that or not？
Robinson： Well， some are， and...and some aren’t. It’s a very complicated system. There are a lot of people in education who have been in this for a very long time， and they don’t necessarily see the need for change and don’t necessarily feel very well-equipped to bring the change about even if they were to understand it. So I think there is a big generational shift that will happen. I think as this generation of young people moves through the system， you may well find that the whole context will have changed and...and they’ll have， you know， a different set of attitudes and energies to bring to this shift. 奥罗拉：教师是否会推动改革？
罗宾逊：呃，有些会，……有些不会。这是一个很复杂的系统。在教育界里，很多人已经呆了很长一段时间，他们未必看到改变的需要，或者他们即使理解改变的必要性，但也觉得自己没能力带来改变。因此我认为将会发生教师大换代。我认为，当这一代年轻人经历完这个教育体系，你就会发现整个教育的背景都会发生改变，他们会以一种不同的态度和干劲带来这样的改革。
Robinson： Creativity’s putting your imagination to work， and sometimes it’s an individual effort and sometimes it involves collaboration. It almost always involves being influenced by other people’s ideas one way or another. I think that the， there’s a huge op...a huge area for innovation—how we organize schools internally. I mean， for example， most schools are still organized by subjects， they divide the day up into small bits， you know， to 40 or 50 minutes， and they ring a bell every 50 minutes. I mean， they’d just be 1）demoralized. It would...you’d never get anything done. But we do it in schools all the time. So I think if you organize schools or learning communities around the nature of the tasks that you’re asking people to do， you...you’d see a very different kind of dynamic. I mean sometimes you want to spend all day working on a project， and sometimes you just need 15 minutes to do something in particular. At the moment it’s all organized around the schedule， and we try to fit everything else into it.
Aurora： Yeah.
Robinson： 2）Tests and drugs and rock-n-roll， isn’t it？ Well， I’m not saying tests are bad. I’ve never said that. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be made to work hard. I think that’s really important. I mean， the problem is where testing becomes the purpose of it all. I’m， what have， I’m not critical of there being data like this， just that people 3）obsess about it， and it becomes the purpose of the exercise.
罗宾逊：创造力就是把你的想象力变成实际行动，这有时候需要个人的努力，有时候需要合作。这个过程几乎总是会被其他人的思想以这样或那样的方式影响。我认为，创新的空间很大——那么我们该如何在内部组织教学呢。我的意思是，例如，大部分学校都是按科目组织教学的，他们把一天分成几个小部分，每部分是40到50分钟，他们每50分钟就会打一次铃。我的意思是，他们会变得毫无生气，它会……你什么都做不成。然而我们在学校一直都是这样做的。因此，我认为，如果你组织学校或学习团体时以要求学生去做的任务的性质为中心，你会看到一种很不一样的劲头。就是说，有时候你想花一整天的时间去做一个项目，而有时候你只需要15分钟去处理一些特殊的事情。目前，所有学校都按照时间表来安排，我们则试图让所有东西去配合它。
奥罗拉：是的。
罗宾逊：测试和毒品是一对的，不是吗？呃，我不是说测试是不好的，我从来没这样说过。我不是说人们不应该用功学习，相反，我认为这是很重要的。我的意思是，问题在于测试成了学习的最终目的。我不是批判这些考试数据，而是人们对此过于关注，使它成了考试的目的。