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ON October 17， 2012， a date that marked the 20th “International Day for the Eradication of Poverty，” China Today sat down for an exclusive interview with Mr. Klaus Rohland， Country Director of the World Bank for China， Mongolia and Korea. Rohland praised China’s unprecedented successes in eradicating poverty and highlighted the contributions the country has made to the international community. Without China’s work， he said， the UN Millennium Development Goals， which range from halving extreme poverty rates to halting the spread of HIV/AIDS， would be unachievable.
Rohland hoped that the “International Day for the Eradication of Poverty” would remind
all of us – no matter in which country we live or where we work – of the need for solidarity in the face of humanity’s challenges. We should work together to help the disadvantaged and ensure all people can look forward to a bright future.
China’s Successes
China Today： As the World Bank’s Country Director for China， how do you view China’s achievements in reducing poverty over the last three decades from a global perspective？ If you were asked to give a score to China’s achievements， how many points would you give？
Rohland： China’s achievements in poverty eradication are better than any other country. China pulled more than 600 million people out of poverty between 1981 and 2012. This is unprecedented， so China needs to be lauded for its achievements. Congratulations should be given not only to the policy-makers of China， but also to all Chinese people， for their remarkable feats over the past three decades.
About the score， well， out of 100， I’d give 95. Such a score is based on China’s unprecedented successes. I should really say 100， but there’s always room for improvement， so 95 is probably a good number.
China Today： Would you like to say something about the efforts you have seen in China？
Rohland： Absolute poverty in China is a rural issue： more than 80 percent of China’s poor live in the countryside. Nowadays what you see when you go to villages in China are incredible things in terms of infrastructure， social services， in education and health care – all these tie into poverty eradication. For instance， if you go to villages in the mountains of Guizhou， most villages now have power， paved roads， schools and health stations. These have all been put in place by China’s government departments responsible for poverty eradication. Poverty is a multifaceted problem that cannot be addressed through education only. The issues need to be tackled by all sectors of society： by men， women， the old and the young， and by children and even grandparents in villages.
Contributions to World Poverty Eradication
China Today： From your point of view， what are the implications of China’s achievements in poverty eradication for global efforts in the field？
Rohland： As you know， the United Nations and the international community have set development goals that are to be achieved by 2015. The first is to halve the world extreme poverty rate. This goal will be achieved essentially thanks to China’s bringing down the number of poor people， especially the number of people in absolute poverty， so dramatically. If it were not for China， the level of poverty in the world would be much higher and the 2015 target would unlikely be met.
China Today： In 2011， the Chinese government changed the national poverty threshold to RMB 2，300 in annual net income per capita for farmers. This new standard increased China’s rural poor population from 26.88 million to 128 million. Would you care to comment on this？
Rohland： Well， every country has its own poverty line for policy purposes. It fundamentally outlines an income level below which special support， special subsidies etc. should be granted. The old poverty line in China， which I think was about RMB 780 per capita per annum （editor’s note： before 2005）， was low compared to world standards. But it suited the times， because China’s population living in poverty was big and it had to concentrate on the very poorest first. This situation has changed， and we all know that in today’s China everybody has enough to eat. Fundamentally， almost no one is going to perish for lack of food. So it is logical to change policy and raise the poverty line so those who are very poor but not abjectly poor also get access to support.
With the standard moving up to RMB 2，300， this equals a daily consumption level of US $1.8 factoring for purchasing power in 2005. So speaking in global terms the policy is very standard. While it will not change the number of poor people， it will provide greater access to government support for more poor people， and that is a good thing.
China Today： For the World Bank， is the focus in China now shifting to include not only rural poverty， but also urban poverty and the provision of education and employment opportunities for migrant children and other disadvantaged groups？ Rohland： Definitely. As China advances， the concepts and strategies pertaining to “old poverty” are changing from making sure nobody dies of hunger and cold weather to focusing on inequality. Inequality in China， as we all know， is comparatively high， and it has been increasing over the past 20 or 30 years. Cities are facing a situation in which they have a lot of migrant workers who don’t have proper access to health and education initiatives， and who lack adequate pensions in old age. The inequality issue is now at the core of the country’s poverty eradication strategy.
Huge Challenges
China Today： In view of the large-scale poverty still existing in China， what do you think the priorities of the administration should be？ What challenges exist and what should China do to address these challenges？
Rohland： Well， the way I see it， as I’ve mentioned， there are two kinds of poverty strategy. One is focused on the absolutely poor. There are still 125 million such people in China that need help， and these people are， by and large， in rural areas in the central， southwestern and western regions of the country. There should be a specific focus on poor villages， and on working with the people to learn what they need to improve their lives. This is the so-called “community participation approach” to poverty eradication， and it is the most effective method used worldwide. We are working in close cooperation with the government to promote the community participation approach in many villages in the poorer areas of China.
The other approach tackles the situation in cities – the issue of migrant workers. The government needs to look into fundamentally abolishing the Hukou system of household registration so that migrant workers have access to social services in cities. This is going to be increasingly important as by 2030 we will see 300 to 350 million people migrating into China’s cities. They will require social services such as schools， hospitals and importable pensions， no matter where they come from. It will be a challenge for the country and also for the cities of China.
So there are two fundamental strategies to eradicate poverty： focus on the poor in the villages to make sure no one is left behind， and focus on the cities and urban developed areas to guarantee everyone who comes into a city not only contributes to it， but also has a decent life for themselves and for their families. The Core of Poverty Eradication：“People-oriented”
China Today： Please tell us of the ways in which the World Bank plans to provide assistance to poverty eradication efforts in China.
Rohland： Well， we work for China’s poverty eradication in tandem with the Chinese government，the Ministry of Finance and the National Development and Reform Commission. We operate specifically in western and southwestern China， and we have tried to fundamentally involve villagers in our efforts. We work with them to give them a sense of responsibility for their own future and support them in their needs and desires. In short， communitydriven development is our key strategy.
China Today： How does the community-based poverty eradication strategy work exactly？
Rohland： The community-based strategy will put people in the driving seat of their own material betterment. We’ve learned from other countries that people’s focusing on their own desires and needs is most important. We are also pursuing a comprehensive set of measures for poverty reduction and community enrichment， which includes road building， school construction， health support and others. Most of the time we focus on all these aspects together； they can’t really be separated. For instance， if you want to make sure that children have access to schools， it is very important for their mothers to be educated. Bringing the mothers into school as well helps them help their children.
Fundamental to all this is making sure that people can make their own living. Nobody wants to live on handouts from the government. Everybody must take their fates into their own hands.
Our efforts also work on the premise of human decency. Putting the poor at the center of the projects helps them to restore their self-confidence. It gives them self-respect and affords them optimism about the future. All these measures together form a broad， multifaceted and successful strategy to eradicate poverty. It’s not a one-size-fits-all approach； it varies from village to village.
China Today： So poverty eradication should aim to restore people’s self-respect and guarantee that everyone gets a decent chance at life？
Rohland： Indeed. The idea is to restore people’s self-confidence， self-esteem and dignity. We should always aim to help each other and take responsibility for ourselves. It’s a fundamental humanist concept that applies equally well to the fight against poverty.
China Today： What projects has the World Bank implemented in China， and how are those projects proceeding？ Rohland： China has made great progress in poverty eradication programs with the World Bank in the past 20-odd years. We have seen poverty project managers adjust their strategies in the southwest areas. At the same time our approaches have become much more comprehensive. We are now implementing the community-driven poverty eradication method， and employing strategies the villagers have devised themselves. Today， they are in greater control of their own futures than ever before. All in all， compared to other parts of the world， poverty eradi- cation in China has been extremely successful. So we are very proud and privileged to be associated with that success， which is closely related to the people of China and their own efforts.
China Needs the World， and the World Needs China
China Today： What is the role of the World Bank in China’s future development？
Rohland： China is now a middle-income country and the challenges it faces are different from the challenges of the 1980s and the 1990s， and indeed those of the first few years of the current century. Fundamentally， China needs to transform its development roadmap and readjust to the new challenges. These challenges are very much centered around issues such as the modern education system and health services coverage. They also include improvements in the quality of medical treatment and preventative medicine， policy that supports innovation in business， and policy that tackles issues of social security. Dealing with these issues effectively will provide China with all the instruments and means it needs to achieve a modern society. A modern society is one that is able to face the global challenges of the 21st century， and one that encourages harmony between men， between man and nature， and between itself and the rest of the world.
In term of the global politics of the 21st century， China needs the world – it is indeed part of it， but the world also needs China. Part of our ongoing mission in China is to make sure that China and the broader world work together for mutual benefit.
China Today： On this day marking the 20th“International Day for the Eradication of Poverty，”would you like to share your views on the event with our readers？
Rohland： This day should remind everyone in the world of the need for solidarity. No matter where we were born or what disadvantages or advantages we were born with， we are all people. We all deserve a bright future； none of us should be left behind.
As we celebrate our achievements thus far， it is our responsibility to remember this day， and our mission to continue our efforts. Bringing change for the better to people’s lives is part of our mission at the World Bank， and it’s a goal we work for each day.
Rohland hoped that the “International Day for the Eradication of Poverty” would remind
all of us – no matter in which country we live or where we work – of the need for solidarity in the face of humanity’s challenges. We should work together to help the disadvantaged and ensure all people can look forward to a bright future.
China’s Successes
China Today： As the World Bank’s Country Director for China， how do you view China’s achievements in reducing poverty over the last three decades from a global perspective？ If you were asked to give a score to China’s achievements， how many points would you give？
Rohland： China’s achievements in poverty eradication are better than any other country. China pulled more than 600 million people out of poverty between 1981 and 2012. This is unprecedented， so China needs to be lauded for its achievements. Congratulations should be given not only to the policy-makers of China， but also to all Chinese people， for their remarkable feats over the past three decades.
About the score， well， out of 100， I’d give 95. Such a score is based on China’s unprecedented successes. I should really say 100， but there’s always room for improvement， so 95 is probably a good number.
China Today： Would you like to say something about the efforts you have seen in China？
Rohland： Absolute poverty in China is a rural issue： more than 80 percent of China’s poor live in the countryside. Nowadays what you see when you go to villages in China are incredible things in terms of infrastructure， social services， in education and health care – all these tie into poverty eradication. For instance， if you go to villages in the mountains of Guizhou， most villages now have power， paved roads， schools and health stations. These have all been put in place by China’s government departments responsible for poverty eradication. Poverty is a multifaceted problem that cannot be addressed through education only. The issues need to be tackled by all sectors of society： by men， women， the old and the young， and by children and even grandparents in villages.
Contributions to World Poverty Eradication
China Today： From your point of view， what are the implications of China’s achievements in poverty eradication for global efforts in the field？
Rohland： As you know， the United Nations and the international community have set development goals that are to be achieved by 2015. The first is to halve the world extreme poverty rate. This goal will be achieved essentially thanks to China’s bringing down the number of poor people， especially the number of people in absolute poverty， so dramatically. If it were not for China， the level of poverty in the world would be much higher and the 2015 target would unlikely be met.
China Today： In 2011， the Chinese government changed the national poverty threshold to RMB 2，300 in annual net income per capita for farmers. This new standard increased China’s rural poor population from 26.88 million to 128 million. Would you care to comment on this？
Rohland： Well， every country has its own poverty line for policy purposes. It fundamentally outlines an income level below which special support， special subsidies etc. should be granted. The old poverty line in China， which I think was about RMB 780 per capita per annum （editor’s note： before 2005）， was low compared to world standards. But it suited the times， because China’s population living in poverty was big and it had to concentrate on the very poorest first. This situation has changed， and we all know that in today’s China everybody has enough to eat. Fundamentally， almost no one is going to perish for lack of food. So it is logical to change policy and raise the poverty line so those who are very poor but not abjectly poor also get access to support.
With the standard moving up to RMB 2，300， this equals a daily consumption level of US $1.8 factoring for purchasing power in 2005. So speaking in global terms the policy is very standard. While it will not change the number of poor people， it will provide greater access to government support for more poor people， and that is a good thing.
China Today： For the World Bank， is the focus in China now shifting to include not only rural poverty， but also urban poverty and the provision of education and employment opportunities for migrant children and other disadvantaged groups？ Rohland： Definitely. As China advances， the concepts and strategies pertaining to “old poverty” are changing from making sure nobody dies of hunger and cold weather to focusing on inequality. Inequality in China， as we all know， is comparatively high， and it has been increasing over the past 20 or 30 years. Cities are facing a situation in which they have a lot of migrant workers who don’t have proper access to health and education initiatives， and who lack adequate pensions in old age. The inequality issue is now at the core of the country’s poverty eradication strategy.
Huge Challenges
China Today： In view of the large-scale poverty still existing in China， what do you think the priorities of the administration should be？ What challenges exist and what should China do to address these challenges？
Rohland： Well， the way I see it， as I’ve mentioned， there are two kinds of poverty strategy. One is focused on the absolutely poor. There are still 125 million such people in China that need help， and these people are， by and large， in rural areas in the central， southwestern and western regions of the country. There should be a specific focus on poor villages， and on working with the people to learn what they need to improve their lives. This is the so-called “community participation approach” to poverty eradication， and it is the most effective method used worldwide. We are working in close cooperation with the government to promote the community participation approach in many villages in the poorer areas of China.
The other approach tackles the situation in cities – the issue of migrant workers. The government needs to look into fundamentally abolishing the Hukou system of household registration so that migrant workers have access to social services in cities. This is going to be increasingly important as by 2030 we will see 300 to 350 million people migrating into China’s cities. They will require social services such as schools， hospitals and importable pensions， no matter where they come from. It will be a challenge for the country and also for the cities of China.
So there are two fundamental strategies to eradicate poverty： focus on the poor in the villages to make sure no one is left behind， and focus on the cities and urban developed areas to guarantee everyone who comes into a city not only contributes to it， but also has a decent life for themselves and for their families. The Core of Poverty Eradication：“People-oriented”
China Today： Please tell us of the ways in which the World Bank plans to provide assistance to poverty eradication efforts in China.
Rohland： Well， we work for China’s poverty eradication in tandem with the Chinese government，the Ministry of Finance and the National Development and Reform Commission. We operate specifically in western and southwestern China， and we have tried to fundamentally involve villagers in our efforts. We work with them to give them a sense of responsibility for their own future and support them in their needs and desires. In short， communitydriven development is our key strategy.
China Today： How does the community-based poverty eradication strategy work exactly？
Rohland： The community-based strategy will put people in the driving seat of their own material betterment. We’ve learned from other countries that people’s focusing on their own desires and needs is most important. We are also pursuing a comprehensive set of measures for poverty reduction and community enrichment， which includes road building， school construction， health support and others. Most of the time we focus on all these aspects together； they can’t really be separated. For instance， if you want to make sure that children have access to schools， it is very important for their mothers to be educated. Bringing the mothers into school as well helps them help their children.
Fundamental to all this is making sure that people can make their own living. Nobody wants to live on handouts from the government. Everybody must take their fates into their own hands.
Our efforts also work on the premise of human decency. Putting the poor at the center of the projects helps them to restore their self-confidence. It gives them self-respect and affords them optimism about the future. All these measures together form a broad， multifaceted and successful strategy to eradicate poverty. It’s not a one-size-fits-all approach； it varies from village to village.
China Today： So poverty eradication should aim to restore people’s self-respect and guarantee that everyone gets a decent chance at life？
Rohland： Indeed. The idea is to restore people’s self-confidence， self-esteem and dignity. We should always aim to help each other and take responsibility for ourselves. It’s a fundamental humanist concept that applies equally well to the fight against poverty.
China Today： What projects has the World Bank implemented in China， and how are those projects proceeding？ Rohland： China has made great progress in poverty eradication programs with the World Bank in the past 20-odd years. We have seen poverty project managers adjust their strategies in the southwest areas. At the same time our approaches have become much more comprehensive. We are now implementing the community-driven poverty eradication method， and employing strategies the villagers have devised themselves. Today， they are in greater control of their own futures than ever before. All in all， compared to other parts of the world， poverty eradi- cation in China has been extremely successful. So we are very proud and privileged to be associated with that success， which is closely related to the people of China and their own efforts.
China Needs the World， and the World Needs China
China Today： What is the role of the World Bank in China’s future development？
Rohland： China is now a middle-income country and the challenges it faces are different from the challenges of the 1980s and the 1990s， and indeed those of the first few years of the current century. Fundamentally， China needs to transform its development roadmap and readjust to the new challenges. These challenges are very much centered around issues such as the modern education system and health services coverage. They also include improvements in the quality of medical treatment and preventative medicine， policy that supports innovation in business， and policy that tackles issues of social security. Dealing with these issues effectively will provide China with all the instruments and means it needs to achieve a modern society. A modern society is one that is able to face the global challenges of the 21st century， and one that encourages harmony between men， between man and nature， and between itself and the rest of the world.
In term of the global politics of the 21st century， China needs the world – it is indeed part of it， but the world also needs China. Part of our ongoing mission in China is to make sure that China and the broader world work together for mutual benefit.
China Today： On this day marking the 20th“International Day for the Eradication of Poverty，”would you like to share your views on the event with our readers？
Rohland： This day should remind everyone in the world of the need for solidarity. No matter where we were born or what disadvantages or advantages we were born with， we are all people. We all deserve a bright future； none of us should be left behind.
As we celebrate our achievements thus far， it is our responsibility to remember this day， and our mission to continue our efforts. Bringing change for the better to people’s lives is part of our mission at the World Bank， and it’s a goal we work for each day.